10 thoughts on “What Is the “Golden Rule” Really About? (podcast episode)”
John W Herbst
Ray, thank you for this message! You make a great point about the motivation that God wants us to have as we do God’s will in general – including, of course, loving other human beings. It’s not enough to follow God’s commands; we need to strive to develop good motivation.
I hope that you might re-think a couple points. First, the Sermon on the Mount clearly teaches that God most certainly does care about what we do. Matt 5:19-20, for example, is unambiguous, and I’m sure that you can find many, many other passages that teach the same without a “therefore.” I agree that the it is better to do the right things with the right motivation (your main point), but the Bible teaches that in God’s eyes doing the right things with bad motivation is better than not doing right at all.
Second, when thinking about forgiveness, it would be wise to consider Matthew 6:14-15. I agree that Eph 4:32 (which you cited without mentioning the reference) which teaches that we should forgive because we’ve been forgiven, is good motivation for forgiving. But if the topic is “motivation for obeying an instruction given in the Sermon on the Mount,” we should look at other verses from that same section. It’s uncomfortable for many to think that forgiveness from God hinges on how well we have forgiven (or treated) others. But it seems to me that you know the Bible well enough to see this as a recurring theme in Matthew.
Again, a nice podcast. I’ll be looking for more of your posts!
Ray Burns
Thank you for the thoughts and encouraging words, John. I agree that I could have delved into your 2nd point more. The balance of Matthew 6:14-15 and Ephesians 4:32 (maybe throwing in 1 John 4:7-11) could probably take up an entire episode on its own.
As to your first point. I agree it always better to do “good” than not to – that’s why Christians call unbelievers NOT to abort babies or tell lies, even though it won’t change their eternal destiny. I hope my point was clear that our actions aren’t what make us righteous before God, even if they’re in line with His commandments. I’d cite Isaiah 1 and Amos (apologies, the references elude me right now) as examples of how God isn’t pleased with ritualistic obedience from a heart that is far from Him. I’m sure you and I are in agreement on those differences, but that’s what I always try to get across when I say “God doesn’t care what we do, but why we do it.”
John W Herbst
Ryan, I’m glad you agree that it is better to do good than not to. But I think you’re confusing the idea of “righteous before God” with the plain words and meaning of the Bible. Yes, Isaiah 1 teaches that God is not pleased with ritual from the wrong kind of heart. But Isaiah 1 also says unambiguously that God evaluates the hearts of Israelites according their moral/ethical behavior.
Even more important, Jesus repeatedly states that God does care about our moral behavior, without the caveat about the state of the heart. We need to be very, very careful not to insert our personal theology into the clear words of the Bible! If Jesus says directly, repeatedly, that what we do is very important, then it is a bad idea to insist that God cares only about motivations, not actions.
You and I share an interest in helping people to get their hearts right in order to be “righteous before God.” But in trying to attain that goal, we should be careful not to change the plain meaning of the Bible text, even when the text creates theological difficulties.
John
It occurred to me that a specific example might be helpful.
You’ve mentioned abortion several times. I think you know that many doctors perform abortions because they honestly believe that they are helping people, and many women who get abortions genuinely believe that they are doing what is best for everyone. So if “God doesn’t care what we do, but why we do it,” then God is perfectly happy with everyone who participates in abortion whose “why” is good.
Passages like the Sermon on the Mount, the Good Samaritan, and Matt 25:31-46, of course, teach the polar opposite. The folks who “do” gain God’s approval, even if their “why” is questionable.
Again, it sounds like your primary concern is our eternal destiny. I think that you and I agree that human eternity depends on faith in Christ’s work on the cross. But we make a huge mistake when we conclude from this that God does not care what we do. According to the Bible, God cares a lot, and God very much wants all of us to practice excellent moral behavior.
Ray Burns
I’m so glad you used an example, because I think I see where our signals might be getting crossed.
Here’s what I think you’re hearing me say: Actions are good as long as our intentions are good or pure. Therefore, even an unbeliever can please God if their hearts are in the right place and they’re TRYING to do the right thing.
I don’t want to put words in your mouth, but is that what you’re hearing me say? If this podcast has been your only exposure to me, I can understand why you might have that impression.
Here’s what I’m trying to say, although perhaps poorly: God isn’t pleased with actions that aren’t motivated through a love, awe, fear, and passion for who He is. My statement is aimed at legealism and a works-based idea of salvation or righteousness. It’s meant to poke a hole in the theology of those who believe the Bible is a rulebook, and as long as we tick off so many boxes with our actions, God will be content.
I believe there is objective good and evil. Evil is evil, regardless of motive. However, God isn’t pleased by good if it comes from a heart that is set against Him. How many people believe they’re going to Heaven because they’re good people? Or how many enemies of God sit in churches, believing they’re safe from His wrath because they tick off all the right boxes? Their actions may seem good, but actions motivated by pride, a sense that WE are capable of proving ourselves to God, or anything else is meaningless before a holy God.
Regarding your abortion example: Even if the hearts of a doctor or mother seem good on the surface, they are still motivated by sin and a rejection of God. Getting or performing an abortion is just a fruit, but the root that produces those actions is corrupted by pride and selfishness.
So yes, our actions absolutely matter. But they only have value if they are a result of the fruit of the Spirit. A heart set after God will walk in His will, and will thus act in a way that pleases Him. Good actions are going to naturally flow from our pursuit of Jesus Christ. However, another person can perform those very same actions and still be an enemy of God because while their actions may be right, their reason for doing them is filled with pride.
I know the internet is a terrible medium for accurate communication, and I’ll admit I can’t fully see where you’re coming from, but some of your comments sound like you believe good people will go to Heaven (you say “gain God’s approval,” which I assume is only meaningful if it protects them from His wrath). I appreciate you referencing the words of Christ, but those need to be interpreted alongside the rest of Scripture. If that’s not what you’re saying, I apologize for the misunderstanding, but either way this can at least help add clarity to my own beliefs:
Romans 3:10-18, Ephesians 2:8-9, and most of Galatians are solid reminders that actions are important, but JUST actions aren’t enough. Even Matthew 5 shows just how impossible it is to please God with our actions alone. God’s word certainly gives us a deeper look into the character of God so that we can better understand what “good” is, but we also need to realize that we are utterly incapable of doing that good on our own because our idea of “good” is rarely done for God’s glory.
Matthew 5:16 and 1 Peter 2:12 even clarify that our good should drive people to God, with 1 Peter 4:7-11 demonstrating that this good comes from reliance upon God. Likewise, Galatians 5:22-23 shows us the source of any genuine good we do. An unbeliever may act morally, but they won’t do so to bring glory to God.
If you’d like to continue this discussion, I do have a follow-up question: Your last comment was that God wants everyone to practice good moral behavior. Why do you believe that is? What value or benefit is there for people to behave in a certain way while still being under the wrath of God?
John
Ryan, I appreciate that you’ve read and thought about my responses. You clearly have spent time in the word, and I appreciate your desire for truth. And, of course, we agree that the best bet for humans is to do the right things for the right reasons.
The big problem I see is that you have a theological idea that does not consider all of the biblical evidence. Your theology makes very good sense overall, EXCEPT that much of the Bible disagrees.
I think you last paragraph points in this direction. Your questions do not sound like, “what does the Bible say,” but instead seem to be, “what is most logical?”
The Bible unambiguously teaches that God wants all people to behave well. For those of us who believe that God is King, we do not have to understand “why.” The general gave us grunts our marching orders, so it is a bad idea to develop a theology that allows us to disobey, say, “love your neighbor as yourself.”
But if “why” is still important, I’d say that God actually cares about the temporal welfare of God’s creation, even if many humans are under God’s wrath. That’s why God wants Christians to push for ways to reduce abortion demand, and to spread the message that “Black Lives Matter.” These do not directly affects the fact of people being under God’s wrath, but you and I agree that God wants us involved in this work anyway.
I hope you think a bit more about the abortion example. Many women who determine to make personal sacrifices instead of undergoing abortion, and doctors who categorically oppose abortion are motivated by sin, pride, and rejection of God. Many women and doctors take part in abortion because they love God, and are humbly trying to do what is best. It’s prideful and sinful of you and me to assume that people who disagree with us have the wrong motives, while those who agree have the right motives.
I understand and appreciate your intention to dissuade people from legalism and works-based justification. But statements like
“God isn’t pleased with actions that aren’t motivated through a love, awe, fear, and passion for who He is”
and
” An unbeliever may act morally, but they won’t do so to bring glory to God”
are just plain wrong, biblically, as I’ve shown. None of the verses you cite teach these things. Yes, goodness SHOULD drive people to God, and good DOES come from relying on God, and God IS the source of all good. But people most certainly can and should do good things even without relying on God, without an awareness of the source of good (obviously, many atheists live very moral, ethical lives). People who have never heard of Jesus or consciously reject Jesus still manage to do good things for unselfish reasons. This is the point of Rom 2:14-15.
You and I agree that doing good things is not enough to be justified. I think we also agree that the thesis “God DOES care what we do, even if we do it for the wrong reason” is problematic in light of the previous sentence! But since the Bible unambiguously teaches that God cares what we do, then we need to adjust our theology accordingly, even if it creates problems.
Thanks again for permitting these posts.
Ray Burns
I appreciate your thoughts and passion, John. It’s clear we’re coming from two different theological worldviews, but I’m glad we can disagree in love.
John
BTW – My apologies for misstating your name, Ray!
John
Ray Burns
No problem at all, brother!
John
Ryan, I’m glad you agree that it is better to do good than not to. But I think you’re confusing the idea of “righteous before God” with the plain words and meaning of the Bible. Yes, Isaiah 1 teaches that God is not pleased with ritual from the wrong kind of heart. But Isaiah 1 also says unambiguously that God evaluates the hearts of Israelites according their moral/ethical behavior.
Even more important, Jesus repeatedly states that God does care about our moral behavior, without the caveat about the state of the heart. We need to be very, very careful not to insert our personal theology into the clear words of the Bible! If Jesus says directly, repeatedly, that what we do is very important, then it is a bad idea to insist that God cares only about motivations, not actions.
You and I share an interest in helping people to get their hearts right in order to be “righteous before God.” But in trying to attain that goal, we should be careful not to change the plain meaning of the Bible text, even when the text creates theological difficulties.
Ray, thank you for this message! You make a great point about the motivation that God wants us to have as we do God’s will in general – including, of course, loving other human beings. It’s not enough to follow God’s commands; we need to strive to develop good motivation.
I hope that you might re-think a couple points. First, the Sermon on the Mount clearly teaches that God most certainly does care about what we do. Matt 5:19-20, for example, is unambiguous, and I’m sure that you can find many, many other passages that teach the same without a “therefore.” I agree that the it is better to do the right things with the right motivation (your main point), but the Bible teaches that in God’s eyes doing the right things with bad motivation is better than not doing right at all.
Second, when thinking about forgiveness, it would be wise to consider Matthew 6:14-15. I agree that Eph 4:32 (which you cited without mentioning the reference) which teaches that we should forgive because we’ve been forgiven, is good motivation for forgiving. But if the topic is “motivation for obeying an instruction given in the Sermon on the Mount,” we should look at other verses from that same section. It’s uncomfortable for many to think that forgiveness from God hinges on how well we have forgiven (or treated) others. But it seems to me that you know the Bible well enough to see this as a recurring theme in Matthew.
Again, a nice podcast. I’ll be looking for more of your posts!
Thank you for the thoughts and encouraging words, John. I agree that I could have delved into your 2nd point more. The balance of Matthew 6:14-15 and Ephesians 4:32 (maybe throwing in 1 John 4:7-11) could probably take up an entire episode on its own.
As to your first point. I agree it always better to do “good” than not to – that’s why Christians call unbelievers NOT to abort babies or tell lies, even though it won’t change their eternal destiny. I hope my point was clear that our actions aren’t what make us righteous before God, even if they’re in line with His commandments. I’d cite Isaiah 1 and Amos (apologies, the references elude me right now) as examples of how God isn’t pleased with ritualistic obedience from a heart that is far from Him. I’m sure you and I are in agreement on those differences, but that’s what I always try to get across when I say “God doesn’t care what we do, but why we do it.”
Ryan, I’m glad you agree that it is better to do good than not to. But I think you’re confusing the idea of “righteous before God” with the plain words and meaning of the Bible. Yes, Isaiah 1 teaches that God is not pleased with ritual from the wrong kind of heart. But Isaiah 1 also says unambiguously that God evaluates the hearts of Israelites according their moral/ethical behavior.
Even more important, Jesus repeatedly states that God does care about our moral behavior, without the caveat about the state of the heart. We need to be very, very careful not to insert our personal theology into the clear words of the Bible! If Jesus says directly, repeatedly, that what we do is very important, then it is a bad idea to insist that God cares only about motivations, not actions.
You and I share an interest in helping people to get their hearts right in order to be “righteous before God.” But in trying to attain that goal, we should be careful not to change the plain meaning of the Bible text, even when the text creates theological difficulties.
It occurred to me that a specific example might be helpful.
You’ve mentioned abortion several times. I think you know that many doctors perform abortions because they honestly believe that they are helping people, and many women who get abortions genuinely believe that they are doing what is best for everyone. So if “God doesn’t care what we do, but why we do it,” then God is perfectly happy with everyone who participates in abortion whose “why” is good.
Passages like the Sermon on the Mount, the Good Samaritan, and Matt 25:31-46, of course, teach the polar opposite. The folks who “do” gain God’s approval, even if their “why” is questionable.
Again, it sounds like your primary concern is our eternal destiny. I think that you and I agree that human eternity depends on faith in Christ’s work on the cross. But we make a huge mistake when we conclude from this that God does not care what we do. According to the Bible, God cares a lot, and God very much wants all of us to practice excellent moral behavior.
I’m so glad you used an example, because I think I see where our signals might be getting crossed.
Here’s what I think you’re hearing me say: Actions are good as long as our intentions are good or pure. Therefore, even an unbeliever can please God if their hearts are in the right place and they’re TRYING to do the right thing.
I don’t want to put words in your mouth, but is that what you’re hearing me say? If this podcast has been your only exposure to me, I can understand why you might have that impression.
Here’s what I’m trying to say, although perhaps poorly: God isn’t pleased with actions that aren’t motivated through a love, awe, fear, and passion for who He is. My statement is aimed at legealism and a works-based idea of salvation or righteousness. It’s meant to poke a hole in the theology of those who believe the Bible is a rulebook, and as long as we tick off so many boxes with our actions, God will be content.
I believe there is objective good and evil. Evil is evil, regardless of motive. However, God isn’t pleased by good if it comes from a heart that is set against Him. How many people believe they’re going to Heaven because they’re good people? Or how many enemies of God sit in churches, believing they’re safe from His wrath because they tick off all the right boxes? Their actions may seem good, but actions motivated by pride, a sense that WE are capable of proving ourselves to God, or anything else is meaningless before a holy God.
Regarding your abortion example: Even if the hearts of a doctor or mother seem good on the surface, they are still motivated by sin and a rejection of God. Getting or performing an abortion is just a fruit, but the root that produces those actions is corrupted by pride and selfishness.
So yes, our actions absolutely matter. But they only have value if they are a result of the fruit of the Spirit. A heart set after God will walk in His will, and will thus act in a way that pleases Him. Good actions are going to naturally flow from our pursuit of Jesus Christ. However, another person can perform those very same actions and still be an enemy of God because while their actions may be right, their reason for doing them is filled with pride.
I know the internet is a terrible medium for accurate communication, and I’ll admit I can’t fully see where you’re coming from, but some of your comments sound like you believe good people will go to Heaven (you say “gain God’s approval,” which I assume is only meaningful if it protects them from His wrath). I appreciate you referencing the words of Christ, but those need to be interpreted alongside the rest of Scripture. If that’s not what you’re saying, I apologize for the misunderstanding, but either way this can at least help add clarity to my own beliefs:
Romans 3:10-18, Ephesians 2:8-9, and most of Galatians are solid reminders that actions are important, but JUST actions aren’t enough. Even Matthew 5 shows just how impossible it is to please God with our actions alone. God’s word certainly gives us a deeper look into the character of God so that we can better understand what “good” is, but we also need to realize that we are utterly incapable of doing that good on our own because our idea of “good” is rarely done for God’s glory.
Matthew 5:16 and 1 Peter 2:12 even clarify that our good should drive people to God, with 1 Peter 4:7-11 demonstrating that this good comes from reliance upon God. Likewise, Galatians 5:22-23 shows us the source of any genuine good we do. An unbeliever may act morally, but they won’t do so to bring glory to God.
If you’d like to continue this discussion, I do have a follow-up question: Your last comment was that God wants everyone to practice good moral behavior. Why do you believe that is? What value or benefit is there for people to behave in a certain way while still being under the wrath of God?
Ryan, I appreciate that you’ve read and thought about my responses. You clearly have spent time in the word, and I appreciate your desire for truth. And, of course, we agree that the best bet for humans is to do the right things for the right reasons.
The big problem I see is that you have a theological idea that does not consider all of the biblical evidence. Your theology makes very good sense overall, EXCEPT that much of the Bible disagrees.
I think you last paragraph points in this direction. Your questions do not sound like, “what does the Bible say,” but instead seem to be, “what is most logical?”
The Bible unambiguously teaches that God wants all people to behave well. For those of us who believe that God is King, we do not have to understand “why.” The general gave us grunts our marching orders, so it is a bad idea to develop a theology that allows us to disobey, say, “love your neighbor as yourself.”
But if “why” is still important, I’d say that God actually cares about the temporal welfare of God’s creation, even if many humans are under God’s wrath. That’s why God wants Christians to push for ways to reduce abortion demand, and to spread the message that “Black Lives Matter.” These do not directly affects the fact of people being under God’s wrath, but you and I agree that God wants us involved in this work anyway.
I hope you think a bit more about the abortion example. Many women who determine to make personal sacrifices instead of undergoing abortion, and doctors who categorically oppose abortion are motivated by sin, pride, and rejection of God. Many women and doctors take part in abortion because they love God, and are humbly trying to do what is best. It’s prideful and sinful of you and me to assume that people who disagree with us have the wrong motives, while those who agree have the right motives.
I understand and appreciate your intention to dissuade people from legalism and works-based justification. But statements like
“God isn’t pleased with actions that aren’t motivated through a love, awe, fear, and passion for who He is”
and
” An unbeliever may act morally, but they won’t do so to bring glory to God”
are just plain wrong, biblically, as I’ve shown. None of the verses you cite teach these things. Yes, goodness SHOULD drive people to God, and good DOES come from relying on God, and God IS the source of all good. But people most certainly can and should do good things even without relying on God, without an awareness of the source of good (obviously, many atheists live very moral, ethical lives). People who have never heard of Jesus or consciously reject Jesus still manage to do good things for unselfish reasons. This is the point of Rom 2:14-15.
You and I agree that doing good things is not enough to be justified. I think we also agree that the thesis “God DOES care what we do, even if we do it for the wrong reason” is problematic in light of the previous sentence! But since the Bible unambiguously teaches that God cares what we do, then we need to adjust our theology accordingly, even if it creates problems.
Thanks again for permitting these posts.
I appreciate your thoughts and passion, John. It’s clear we’re coming from two different theological worldviews, but I’m glad we can disagree in love.
BTW – My apologies for misstating your name, Ray!
John
No problem at all, brother!
Ryan, I’m glad you agree that it is better to do good than not to. But I think you’re confusing the idea of “righteous before God” with the plain words and meaning of the Bible. Yes, Isaiah 1 teaches that God is not pleased with ritual from the wrong kind of heart. But Isaiah 1 also says unambiguously that God evaluates the hearts of Israelites according their moral/ethical behavior.
Even more important, Jesus repeatedly states that God does care about our moral behavior, without the caveat about the state of the heart. We need to be very, very careful not to insert our personal theology into the clear words of the Bible! If Jesus says directly, repeatedly, that what we do is very important, then it is a bad idea to insist that God cares only about motivations, not actions.
You and I share an interest in helping people to get their hearts right in order to be “righteous before God.” But in trying to attain that goal, we should be careful not to change the plain meaning of the Bible text, even when the text creates theological difficulties.